Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

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Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

Micro-Manager mailing list
Hi,

I recently discovered Micro-Manager and have been able to capture image sequences from one of our Hamamatsu C9728DK-10 detectors, which use are USB DCAM detectors. I have a couple of questions which I'll ask in separate forum posts.

I haven't been able to get Multi-Camera working. When adding multiple detectors that are all connected to the PC, how do I know which physical camera the wizard is finding and adding? I believe I need to know this in order to connect the physical triggers from the master camera to the slaves and to order the cameras in the Multi Camera Metadevice. When I look at the Device Property Browser, I see both cameras, and the Multi Camera device allows me to add both. Does Micro-Manager rely on the camera serial number to identify cameras? I ask because Hamamatsu have set the serial numbers in our detectors incorrectly so that we have (at least) two cameras with the same serial number. Will this prevent us from using those in a multi-camera arrangement?

thanks,
Gary

--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079




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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

JonD
Administrator
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> I haven't been able to get Multi-Camera working. When adding multiple
> detectors that are all connected to the PC, how do I know which physical
> camera the wizard is finding and adding?

My experience with completely different cameras in the HamamatsuHam device
adapter is that the order they are recognized relates to the position they
are installed in the computer (e.g. which PCIe slot).  It is hard to predict
what order this will be, but the ordering is consistent every time you
launch as long as both are powered up.  BTW this seems true for other
cameras when i have two identical ones installed.

I don't make an attempt to figure out the order ahead of time.  Rather I
create a hardware configuration instancing both, then use live mode to see
if I guessed the order correctly, and if I guessed incorrectly then I simply
edit the config file with a text editor to interchange the order of the two
pertinent lines near the top of the file which specify the device name and
device adapter.

Jon

-------------------------------------------
Jon Daniels
Applied Scientific Instrumentation (ASI)
29391 West Enid Rd, Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 461-8181 x118
-------------------------------------------



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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

Micro-Manager mailing list
Thanks for sharing your experience Jon. I'll try this tomorrow. We are using USB-connected detectors, so the configuration may be a bit more "dynamic" but I'll try with two cameras initially, which restricts the configuration permutations.

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 14:38, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> I haven't been able to get Multi-Camera working. When adding multiple
> detectors that are all connected to the PC, how do I know which physical
> camera the wizard is finding and adding?

My experience with completely different cameras in the HamamatsuHam device
adapter is that the order they are recognized relates to the position they
are installed in the computer (e.g. which PCIe slot).  It is hard to predict
what order this will be, but the ordering is consistent every time you
launch as long as both are powered up.  BTW this seems true for other
cameras when i have two identical ones installed.

I don't make an attempt to figure out the order ahead of time.  Rather I
create a hardware configuration instancing both, then use live mode to see
if I guessed the order correctly, and if I guessed incorrectly then I simply
edit the config file with a text editor to interchange the order of the two
pertinent lines near the top of the file which specify the device name and
device adapter.

Jon

-------------------------------------------
Jon Daniels
Applied Scientific Instrumentation (ASI)
29391 West Enid Rd, Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 461-8181 x118
-------------------------------------------



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Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
​School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079




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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

Micro-Manager mailing list
Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't managed to get it to work yet.
Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box appear with
--
Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
--

Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I did discover that what I had said previously, that we have multiple detectors with the same serial number, isn't true; if I connect two detectors separately, they each show up as having different serial numbers, but if I connect them both via two USB ports on the same PC, they both report having the same serial number, so there seems to be a bug in the DCAM driver.

thanks,
Gary

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 17:16, Gary Ruben <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experience Jon. I'll try this tomorrow. We are using USB-connected detectors, so the configuration may be a bit more "dynamic" but I'll try with two cameras initially, which restricts the configuration permutations.

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 14:38, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> I haven't been able to get Multi-Camera working. When adding multiple
> detectors that are all connected to the PC, how do I know which physical
> camera the wizard is finding and adding?

My experience with completely different cameras in the HamamatsuHam device
adapter is that the order they are recognized relates to the position they
are installed in the computer (e.g. which PCIe slot).  It is hard to predict
what order this will be, but the ordering is consistent every time you
launch as long as both are powered up.  BTW this seems true for other
cameras when i have two identical ones installed.

I don't make an attempt to figure out the order ahead of time.  Rather I
create a hardware configuration instancing both, then use live mode to see
if I guessed the order correctly, and if I guessed incorrectly then I simply
edit the config file with a text editor to interchange the order of the two
pertinent lines near the top of the file which specify the device name and
device adapter.

Jon

-------------------------------------------
Jon Daniels
Applied Scientific Instrumentation (ASI)
29391 West Enid Rd, Eugene, OR 97402
(541) 461-8181 x118
-------------------------------------------



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Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University



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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

JonD
Administrator
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote

> Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't
> managed to get it to work yet.
> Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box
> appear with
> --
> Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
> Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
> --
>
> Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I've had this happen when I have simply forgotten to assign physical cameras
to the properties of the Multi-Camera device.  Now I follow the "best
practice" listed at https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Utilities#Multi-Camera
and use the System-Startup group to never forget.

If your problem is deeper, I suggest enabling debug logging and looking at
the Corelog file for hints.

Jon



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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

Micro-Manager mailing list
Thanks again Jon for sharing more of your tips and experience. I looked at the error log and nothing leapt out as being a problem. I'm pretty sure the detectors were assigned correctly. I'm trying with two detectors, named det1 and det2. If I disconnect the trigger cable and change the Core-Camera from Multi Camera to det1 and go to Live capture, I see images from detector 1. But, if I change the Core-Camera to det2 I still get images from detector 1.
I initially said that Hamamatsu have set the serial numbers in our detectors incorrectly but I have now established that if I connect and address them individually they do actually have different serial numbers. The DCAM driver is returning the serial number for only one of the detectors when they are both connected. It may be that the other parameters are also only being set or retrieved from one of the two detectors. We see the same behaviour independently of Micro-Manager which strongly suggests to me that there is a problem with the DCAM driver or possibly with the detector firmware. I will have to try to contact Hamamatsu, at least to inform them about the serial number bug. Looking at the forum archives, Patrick Gregorio from Hamamatsu is mentioned as being the developer of the HamamatsuHam DCAM adapter in Micro-Manager but I'm not sure if he works in the same group as the detector developers so I will try Hamamatsu Support through their website.

regards,
Gary

On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 23:02, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't
> managed to get it to work yet.
> Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box
> appear with
> --
> Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
> Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
> --
>
> Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I've had this happen when I have simply forgotten to assign physical cameras
to the properties of the Multi-Camera device.  Now I follow the "best
practice" listed at https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Utilities#Multi-Camera
and use the System-Startup group to never forget.

If your problem is deeper, I suggest enabling debug logging and looking at
the Corelog file for hints.

Jon



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--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
​School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079




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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

jmarkham
Hi Gary, have you tried looking at the camera output in the Hamamatsu applications HCImageLive? From memory that can be useful to play with the settings interactively and may give some clues as to what MM needs.

Regards,

John


On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 17:38, Gary Ruben via micro-manager-general <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks again Jon for sharing more of your tips and experience. I looked at the error log and nothing leapt out as being a problem. I'm pretty sure the detectors were assigned correctly. I'm trying with two detectors, named det1 and det2. If I disconnect the trigger cable and change the Core-Camera from Multi Camera to det1 and go to Live capture, I see images from detector 1. But, if I change the Core-Camera to det2 I still get images from detector 1.
I initially said that Hamamatsu have set the serial numbers in our detectors incorrectly but I have now established that if I connect and address them individually they do actually have different serial numbers. The DCAM driver is returning the serial number for only one of the detectors when they are both connected. It may be that the other parameters are also only being set or retrieved from one of the two detectors. We see the same behaviour independently of Micro-Manager which strongly suggests to me that there is a problem with the DCAM driver or possibly with the detector firmware. I will have to try to contact Hamamatsu, at least to inform them about the serial number bug. Looking at the forum archives, Patrick Gregorio from Hamamatsu is mentioned as being the developer of the HamamatsuHam DCAM adapter in Micro-Manager but I'm not sure if he works in the same group as the detector developers so I will try Hamamatsu Support through their website.

regards,
Gary

On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 23:02, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't
> managed to get it to work yet.
> Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box
> appear with
> --
> Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
> Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
> --
>
> Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I've had this happen when I have simply forgotten to assign physical cameras
to the properties of the Multi-Camera device.  Now I follow the "best
practice" listed at https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Utilities#Multi-Camera
and use the System-Startup group to never forget.

If your problem is deeper, I suggest enabling debug logging and looking at
the Corelog file for hints.

Jon



--
Sent from: http://micro-manager.3463995.n2.nabble.com/


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
​School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

Micro-Manager mailing list
Thanks for the suggestion John,
We don't own HCImageLive. We use Hamamatsu's HiPic software instead, which I suspect gives us the same control as HCImageLive, but HiPic doesn't support multi-camera, and I suspect HCImageLive doesn't either? Our experience with Multi-camera prior to discovering Micro-Manager is that a colleague in my group was using the Hamamatsu DCAM-SDK to try to develop our own multi-detector capture software. He also experiences the problems I mentioned with the serial number, but hadn't realised that it appears to be a DCAM bug. I have reported it to Hamamatsu now so I'll wait to see if we get a response from them.

regards,
Gary

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 11:40, John Markham <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Gary, have you tried looking at the camera output in the Hamamatsu applications HCImageLive? From memory that can be useful to play with the settings interactively and may give some clues as to what MM needs.

Regards,

John


On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 17:38, Gary Ruben via micro-manager-general <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks again Jon for sharing more of your tips and experience. I looked at the error log and nothing leapt out as being a problem. I'm pretty sure the detectors were assigned correctly. I'm trying with two detectors, named det1 and det2. If I disconnect the trigger cable and change the Core-Camera from Multi Camera to det1 and go to Live capture, I see images from detector 1. But, if I change the Core-Camera to det2 I still get images from detector 1.
I initially said that Hamamatsu have set the serial numbers in our detectors incorrectly but I have now established that if I connect and address them individually they do actually have different serial numbers. The DCAM driver is returning the serial number for only one of the detectors when they are both connected. It may be that the other parameters are also only being set or retrieved from one of the two detectors. We see the same behaviour independently of Micro-Manager which strongly suggests to me that there is a problem with the DCAM driver or possibly with the detector firmware. I will have to try to contact Hamamatsu, at least to inform them about the serial number bug. Looking at the forum archives, Patrick Gregorio from Hamamatsu is mentioned as being the developer of the HamamatsuHam DCAM adapter in Micro-Manager but I'm not sure if he works in the same group as the detector developers so I will try Hamamatsu Support through their website.

regards,
Gary

On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 23:02, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't
> managed to get it to work yet.
> Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box
> appear with
> --
> Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
> Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
> --
>
> Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I've had this happen when I have simply forgotten to assign physical cameras
to the properties of the Multi-Camera device.  Now I follow the "best
practice" listed at https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Utilities#Multi-Camera
and use the System-Startup group to never forget.

If your problem is deeper, I suggest enabling debug logging and looking at
the Corelog file for hints.

Jon



--
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_______________________________________________
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--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079


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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

jmarkham
My memory is that it worked for us - although it's a few months since I looked at it. You can download it here:
You need a login, but they gave me one when I sent them the model and serial numbers of the line scanning units. Have you tried different versions of dcamapi.dll?

J.

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 11:58, Gary Ruben via micro-manager-general <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion John,
We don't own HCImageLive. We use Hamamatsu's HiPic software instead, which I suspect gives us the same control as HCImageLive, but HiPic doesn't support multi-camera, and I suspect HCImageLive doesn't either? Our experience with Multi-camera prior to discovering Micro-Manager is that a colleague in my group was using the Hamamatsu DCAM-SDK to try to develop our own multi-detector capture software. He also experiences the problems I mentioned with the serial number, but hadn't realised that it appears to be a DCAM bug. I have reported it to Hamamatsu now so I'll wait to see if we get a response from them.

regards,
Gary

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 11:40, John Markham <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Gary, have you tried looking at the camera output in the Hamamatsu applications HCImageLive? From memory that can be useful to play with the settings interactively and may give some clues as to what MM needs.

Regards,

John


On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 17:38, Gary Ruben via micro-manager-general <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks again Jon for sharing more of your tips and experience. I looked at the error log and nothing leapt out as being a problem. I'm pretty sure the detectors were assigned correctly. I'm trying with two detectors, named det1 and det2. If I disconnect the trigger cable and change the Core-Camera from Multi Camera to det1 and go to Live capture, I see images from detector 1. But, if I change the Core-Camera to det2 I still get images from detector 1.
I initially said that Hamamatsu have set the serial numbers in our detectors incorrectly but I have now established that if I connect and address them individually they do actually have different serial numbers. The DCAM driver is returning the serial number for only one of the detectors when they are both connected. It may be that the other parameters are also only being set or retrieved from one of the two detectors. We see the same behaviour independently of Micro-Manager which strongly suggests to me that there is a problem with the DCAM driver or possibly with the detector firmware. I will have to try to contact Hamamatsu, at least to inform them about the serial number bug. Looking at the forum archives, Patrick Gregorio from Hamamatsu is mentioned as being the developer of the HamamatsuHam DCAM adapter in Micro-Manager but I'm not sure if he works in the same group as the detector developers so I will try Hamamatsu Support through their website.

regards,
Gary

On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 23:02, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't
> managed to get it to work yet.
> Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box
> appear with
> --
> Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
> Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
> --
>
> Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I've had this happen when I have simply forgotten to assign physical cameras
to the properties of the Multi-Camera device.  Now I follow the "best
practice" listed at https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Utilities#Multi-Camera
and use the System-Startup group to never forget.

If your problem is deeper, I suggest enabling debug logging and looking at
the Corelog file for hints.

Jon



--
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_______________________________________________
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--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079


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Re: Trying to use Multi Camera with Hamamatsu USB detectors

Micro-Manager mailing list
Thanks for the suggestion John. I looked at the HCImage site and it says it is included with Hamamatsu cameras so I have now contacted them to see if we can get a copy to try with our detectors. I'm using the latest driver version but we definitely experienced this with our older versions too.

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 22:45, John Markham <[hidden email]> wrote:
My memory is that it worked for us - although it's a few months since I looked at it. You can download it here:
You need a login, but they gave me one when I sent them the model and serial numbers of the line scanning units. Have you tried different versions of dcamapi.dll?

J.

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 11:58, Gary Ruben via micro-manager-general <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion John,
We don't own HCImageLive. We use Hamamatsu's HiPic software instead, which I suspect gives us the same control as HCImageLive, but HiPic doesn't support multi-camera, and I suspect HCImageLive doesn't either? Our experience with Multi-camera prior to discovering Micro-Manager is that a colleague in my group was using the Hamamatsu DCAM-SDK to try to develop our own multi-detector capture software. He also experiences the problems I mentioned with the serial number, but hadn't realised that it appears to be a DCAM bug. I have reported it to Hamamatsu now so I'll wait to see if we get a response from them.

regards,
Gary

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 11:40, John Markham <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Gary, have you tried looking at the camera output in the Hamamatsu applications HCImageLive? From memory that can be useful to play with the settings interactively and may give some clues as to what MM needs.

Regards,

John


On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 17:38, Gary Ruben via micro-manager-general <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks again Jon for sharing more of your tips and experience. I looked at the error log and nothing leapt out as being a problem. I'm pretty sure the detectors were assigned correctly. I'm trying with two detectors, named det1 and det2. If I disconnect the trigger cable and change the Core-Camera from Multi Camera to det1 and go to Live capture, I see images from detector 1. But, if I change the Core-Camera to det2 I still get images from detector 1.
I initially said that Hamamatsu have set the serial numbers in our detectors incorrectly but I have now established that if I connect and address them individually they do actually have different serial numbers. The DCAM driver is returning the serial number for only one of the detectors when they are both connected. It may be that the other parameters are also only being set or retrieved from one of the two detectors. We see the same behaviour independently of Micro-Manager which strongly suggests to me that there is a problem with the DCAM driver or possibly with the detector firmware. I will have to try to contact Hamamatsu, at least to inform them about the serial number bug. Looking at the forum archives, Patrick Gregorio from Hamamatsu is mentioned as being the developer of the HamamatsuHam DCAM adapter in Micro-Manager but I'm not sure if he works in the same group as the detector developers so I will try Hamamatsu Support through their website.

regards,
Gary

On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 23:02, JonD <[hidden email]> wrote:
Micro-Manager mailing list wrote
> Just to follow up on my attempt to get Multi-Camera working, I haven't
> managed to get it to work yet.
> Currently, when I attempt to go to Live mode I get an error dialog box
> appear with
> --
> Error: Couldn't start live mode acquisition
> Error in device "Multi Camera": Unknown error in the device (1)
> --
>
> Any hints on how to narrow down what might be happening?

I've had this happen when I have simply forgotten to assign physical cameras
to the properties of the Multi-Camera device.  Now I follow the "best
practice" listed at https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Utilities#Multi-Camera
and use the System-Startup group to never forget.

If your problem is deeper, I suggest enabling debug logging and looking at
the Corelog file for hints.

Jon



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_______________________________________________
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--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079


_______________________________________________
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--
Gary Ruben, Senior Research Officer, X-Ray Imaging Group
New Horizons Bldg 
​School of Physics & Astronomy
 | Monash University
p. +61 3 99051079




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