Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
8 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

Liron Mcley
Hi everyone,

I'm rather new to the SW and I am looking for a way to externally trigger image acquisition with Micro-Manager (and couldn't figure it out so far). Any help would be much appreciated!!

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample. 
Up until now, I had a SW where I set the exposure time, the number of image I want to acquire and then I set acquisition start mode as "Trigger". So the SW would be in charge of the length of exposure and how many images are to be taken, but the start of acquisition of each frame would be timed by the laser. The problem with that SW is that it isn't saving the images correctly, so I need to find another software... That's where MicroManager comes in!

Is there a "triggered mode" in Micro Manager I could use?

Any help would be great!
Thank you,
Liron




_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

P.Almada
Hi Liron,

Micro-Manager can do triggering, certainly. It'll depend on the device adapter for the camera whether or not you can set the setting though. You can read more here:
https://micro-manager.org/wiki/Hardware-based_Synchronization_in_Micro-Manager 
 
It's a little old but essentially you just set the camera to wait for a trigger and Micro-Manager will wait for up to 10 seconds for the next image from the camera.

All the best,
Pedro

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 at 10:18, Liron Mcley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

I'm rather new to the SW and I am looking for a way to externally trigger image acquisition with Micro-Manager (and couldn't figure it out so far). Any help would be much appreciated!!

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample. 
Up until now, I had a SW where I set the exposure time, the number of image I want to acquire and then I set acquisition start mode as "Trigger". So the SW would be in charge of the length of exposure and how many images are to be taken, but the start of acquisition of each frame would be timed by the laser. The problem with that SW is that it isn't saving the images correctly, so I need to find another software... That's where MicroManager comes in!

Is there a "triggered mode" in Micro Manager I could use?

Any help would be great!
Thank you,
Liron


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

Radek Jankele
In reply to this post by Liron Mcley
Hi Liron,

If your laser can accept  TTL input you can let your camera do the triggering. This way you don't need to start acquisition from outside of micromanager. This is how we usually do it with our microscopes. 
It might work but depends on your hardware. 

Best!
Radek

čt 16. 1. 2020 v 11:17 odesílatel Liron Mcley <[hidden email]> napsal:
Hi everyone,

I'm rather new to the SW and I am looking for a way to externally trigger image acquisition with Micro-Manager (and couldn't figure it out so far). Any help would be much appreciated!!

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample. 
Up until now, I had a SW where I set the exposure time, the number of image I want to acquire and then I set acquisition start mode as "Trigger". So the SW would be in charge of the length of exposure and how many images are to be taken, but the start of acquisition of each frame would be timed by the laser. The problem with that SW is that it isn't saving the images correctly, so I need to find another software... That's where MicroManager comes in!

Is there a "triggered mode" in Micro Manager I could use?

Any help would be great!
Thank you,
Liron


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general


--
Radek Jankele
--------------------
PhD student 
Pierre Gönczy laboratory UPGON
EPFL SV

Phone: +41-21-6930710


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

AustinBlanco
In reply to this post by Liron Mcley
(Commercial Interest)

I have a product made to do exactly this called the Triggerscope 3B. 

If you only need 5V TTL (E.g. ON or OFF) and not a variable voltage DAC (e.g. “set some output to 4.2Volts). Then the simplest approach would be to use an Arduino Uno, which can accept camera triggers and respond using TTL signal changes. 

The Triggerscope is a more complex version of this idea - adding 16 DAC outputs and a bunch of other things. Please let me know if you would like more information. 




Austin Blanco
Advanced Research Consulting Corporation
e. [hidden email]
w. www.advancedresearch.co
c. 510.708.2995





On Jan 16, 2020, at 2:17 AM, Liron Mcley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I'm rather new to the SW and I am looking for a way to externally trigger image acquisition with Micro-Manager (and couldn't figure it out so far). Any help would be much appreciated!!

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample. 
Up until now, I had a SW where I set the exposure time, the number of image I want to acquire and then I set acquisition start mode as "Trigger". So the SW would be in charge of the length of exposure and how many images are to be taken, but the start of acquisition of each frame would be timed by the laser. The problem with that SW is that it isn't saving the images correctly, so I need to find another software... That's where MicroManager comes in!

Is there a "triggered mode" in Micro Manager I could use?

Any help would be great!
Thank you,
Liron


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general



_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

Nico Stuurman-2
In reply to this post by Liron Mcley
Hi Liron,

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample.

Usually, we do this the other way around.  Connect the "exposure" TTL from the camera (or whatever it is named, you want a signal that is high when the full frame is exposing) to the laser digital on/off input, and you will only illuminate when the full chip is exposing.  There must be something interesting in your setup that you would like to have the laser trigger the camera (it would help to explain this a bit better). 
When you trigger the camera, you will need to take care that you only trigger it when it is ready (there usually is a "ready" output that will go high when you can trigger), and you may need to think about rolling shutter behavior of your camera, so that makes things quite a bit more complicated.


Best,

Nico




_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

Liron Mcley
Thank you for answering so fast Pedro, Austin, Radek and Nico!

It is absolutely crucial that the laser would do the triggering because is also triggers other part of the system that operate faster than the camera. The laser triggers 4 times during a single exposure of the camera. 
So, I'll try Pedro's suggestions and report back.
Regarding triggering the camera when it is ready, it is usually enough to set exposure to a little less then when the trigger is supposed to arrive - in my case, I want it to trigger every 0.16[s] so I set the exposure to 0.15[s] and that is more than enough to not loose any frames.

Best, 
Liron



On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 at 19:15, Nico Stuurman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Liron,

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample.

Usually, we do this the other way around.  Connect the "exposure" TTL from the camera (or whatever it is named, you want a signal that is high when the full frame is exposing) to the laser digital on/off input, and you will only illuminate when the full chip is exposing.  There must be something interesting in your setup that you would like to have the laser trigger the camera (it would help to explain this a bit better). 
When you trigger the camera, you will need to take care that you only trigger it when it is ready (there usually is a "ready" output that will go high when you can trigger), and you may need to think about rolling shutter behavior of your camera, so that makes things quite a bit more complicated.


Best,

Nico


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

Liron Mcley
So the solution to this was simpler than expected!!
As the camera already has an external trigger option I just needed to find where in MM this property can be changed from internal trigger to external trigger.
One can find this in Devices\Device Property Browser (MM version 2.0 and up). That's it!

Hope this helps other newbies,
Liron

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 09:39, Liron Mcley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thank you for answering so fast Pedro, Austin, Radek and Nico!

It is absolutely crucial that the laser would do the triggering because is also triggers other part of the system that operate faster than the camera. The laser triggers 4 times during a single exposure of the camera. 
So, I'll try Pedro's suggestions and report back.
Regarding triggering the camera when it is ready, it is usually enough to set exposure to a little less then when the trigger is supposed to arrive - in my case, I want it to trigger every 0.16[s] so I set the exposure to 0.15[s] and that is more than enough to not loose any frames.

Best, 
Liron



On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 at 19:15, Nico Stuurman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Liron,

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample.

Usually, we do this the other way around.  Connect the "exposure" TTL from the camera (or whatever it is named, you want a signal that is high when the full frame is exposing) to the laser digital on/off input, and you will only illuminate when the full chip is exposing.  There must be something interesting in your setup that you would like to have the laser trigger the camera (it would help to explain this a bit better). 
When you trigger the camera, you will need to take care that you only trigger it when it is ready (there usually is a "ready" output that will go high when you can trigger), and you may need to think about rolling shutter behavior of your camera, so that makes things quite a bit more complicated.


Best,

Nico


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Using an external trigger with Micro Manager

Yongqi Shi
Dear Liron, dear all,

     This is Yongqi. Thanks a lot for sharing the experiences of externally triggering camera topic. I’m currently encountering a similar problem which I cannot solve easily. I’m using a Prime sCMOS camera from photometrics company. It is a rolling shutter camera and I’m using “All Rows” mode, which means the effective expose out signal is high only when all the ROI pixels start to expose. I’m using an external trigger source to control both the camera and my laser. The problem I find is that there’s always a 9.6us-range jitter for the effective expose out signal, which means the actual starting time of exposure is random… Since my laser pulse is just 1us and my effective global expose window is 19.2us, this jitter problem is really harmful to me. Does anyone have experience with this camera and how to deal with it?       By the way, my laser pulse has been controlled precisely by the same trigger source and jitter of it is far less than nano-second level and can be ignored.

Thanks a lot in advance and best wishes,

Yongqi Shi

On 21 Jan 2020, at 10:13, Liron Mcley <[hidden email]> wrote:

So the solution to this was simpler than expected!!
As the camera already has an external trigger option I just needed to find where in MM this property can be changed from internal trigger to external trigger.
One can find this in Devices\Device Property Browser (MM version 2.0 and up). That's it!

Hope this helps other newbies,
Liron

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 09:39, Liron Mcley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thank you for answering so fast Pedro, Austin, Radek and Nico!

It is absolutely crucial that the laser would do the triggering because is also triggers other part of the system that operate faster than the camera. The laser triggers 4 times during a single exposure of the camera. 
So, I'll try Pedro's suggestions and report back.
Regarding triggering the camera when it is ready, it is usually enough to set exposure to a little less then when the trigger is supposed to arrive - in my case, I want it to trigger every 0.16[s] so I set the exposure to 0.15[s] and that is more than enough to not loose any frames.

Best, 
Liron



On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 at 19:15, Nico Stuurman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Liron,

My setup:
I have an FL 20BW camera from Tucsen Photonics. 
My laser sends TTL triggers to the camera directly (there is a trigger input connection on the camera) so that a frame would be acquired only when the laser illuminates the sample.

Usually, we do this the other way around.  Connect the "exposure" TTL from the camera (or whatever it is named, you want a signal that is high when the full frame is exposing) to the laser digital on/off input, and you will only illuminate when the full chip is exposing.  There must be something interesting in your setup that you would like to have the laser trigger the camera (it would help to explain this a bit better). 
When you trigger the camera, you will need to take care that you only trigger it when it is ready (there usually is a "ready" output that will go high when you can trigger), and you may need to think about rolling shutter behavior of your camera, so that makes things quite a bit more complicated.


Best,

Nico


_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general
_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general



_______________________________________________
micro-manager-general mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/micro-manager-general